ecoRI News reporter Colleen Cronin sits down with Rhode Island’s director of environmental management, Terry Gray, to discuss the state’s lengthening beach season, beach renourishment, a recent whale death, open records, and balancing affordable housing with land conservation.

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Please share any questions you want Colleen to ask Terry Gray on our May episode by emailing her at [email protected].

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This transcript was edited for clarity and length.

Colleen Cronin 

Welcome to the Blab Lab, a podcast from the reporters of ecoRI News where we unpack the critical environmental issues facing southern New England. I’m reporter Colleen Cronin, and today, I’m here with Terry Gray, the director of the Rhode Island Department of Environmental Management, to talk a little bit about how you guys prepare for beach and park season coming up soon. Terry came on our podcast last month to talk about DEM’s missions and overarching goals. And I’m really excited to be kind of talking about what I’m really looking forward to coming up: going hiking more and going to the beach more. So hi, Terry, thanks so much coming on.

Terry Gray 

Hi, Colleen. Thanks for having me back. This is going to be a fun conversation.

Colleen Cronin 

I’m excited. So just to start out, it’s getting a little bit warmer, although it’s raining today, as we’re recording, but you guys have a lot of responsibilities, but one of the big ones that I think people think about when they think about DEM is the state’s parks and beaches. Can you just kind of maybe start out by talking about the scope of that responsibility getting prepared for the summer season?

Terry Gray 

Our parks program has a pretty big responsibility across the state. And a lot of people don’t really realize the breadth of that. So really, they focus on working on the beaches, the state beaches, state campgrounds, state parks, and a group of bike paths. So, with the beaches, there’s eight ocean beaches, along Rhode Island. They’re all beautiful. They all have their own personalities and their own clientele. There are 14 state parks. And there’s five campgrounds. And some of those campgrounds are like little cities in the summer. So, it’s a handful.

Colleen Cronin 

What does the prep entail? And when does it get started, if it hasn’t already?

Terry Gray 

It actually starts at the end of the previous season. So, our staff spend a lot of time really preparing the facilities and the properties for the offseason. And they make sure that things stay safe, that things really stay in good condition over the winter. But then things really start to pop, I think, probably around January. And that’s when we typically post all our seasonal positions. So, DEM right now is 425. Or, we’re authorized for 425 permanent employees. But in the summer, we double in size in order to support that workload.

Colleen Cronin 

And I know that hiring has been kind of a problem for a lot of different sectors. I’ve written personally about how there’s a driver shortage for RIPTA. I know when I first started working at ecoRI, I had conversations with you guys over at DEM about how it was hard to get, you know, some younger people on board. Is that still a problem? Are you still seeing sort of those post COVID impacts on hiring?

Terry Gray 

Yeah, Colleen, that’s a good point. There are a few challenges related to relying on a seasonal workforce for so much of our management. One is that there’s not a lot of candidates out there, there’s not as many as they used to be. So, we really have to up our game in terms of recruiting and, and really selling ourselves as a real great opportunity for a summer job. The second one is summer isn’t what it used to be. And we used to really focus on Memorial Day to Labor Day as our core season, but with climate change, a lot of times beach season starts in April, and it continues to October. And that really creates a challenge on how we can really serve our customers. They want to go to the beach, they want to go to the parks, but when I have seasonal people leave, we’re really struggling to support that.

Colleen Cronin 

Does that ever make a crunch at all, in the beginning of the season, with more people trying to maybe come out to the beach, then in in early May, when that used to actually be pretty cold around here?

Terry Gray 

We try and accommodate that by opening a couple of facilities early, and really staffing them with our full-time staff, but also trying to get some seasonals that might be interested in coming on early as well. In the back end of the season, after Labor Day, is particularly tough, because a lot of people go back to school, a lot of people returned to their regular jobs, that type of thing. There’s a lot of teachers that look at seasonal positions. And we have a tough time retaining people into the fall.

Colleen Cronin 

And then I imagine in that sort of prep that you’re talking about that really starts at the end of the season, you might have fewer people able to help you kind of close up shop in the fall, right?

Terry Gray 

It’s a long, deliberate process. The park staff wants to be careful because the pavilions and sort of the beachfront properties that we have are kind of our crown jewels in terms of our assets. So, we want to make sure that they’re protected over the winter and they’re ready to face whatever comes their way in the offseason.

Colleen Cronin 

Is the process for that sort of like, I’m thinking about, I, my parents, have a boat and we have to, you know, winterize the boat and pack it all up, and people who have summer houses they do kind of a similar thing. Is it sort of that kind of process for the beaches?

Terry Gray 

Yeah, it’s very similar. It’s a good analogy. They winterize the buildings. You look at things like lifeguard chairs and some of the other support equipment that are necessary to run the beaches. They bring those in and store them for the winter. They really want to make sure everything’s kind of locked down and prepared for the offseason. So that’s their focus.

Colleen Cronin 

We’ve had a ton of storms, it’s raining, not super heavily today as we’re recording, but you know, we’ve got a lot of rain, we’ve got a lot of wind. How does that affect, you know, preparing the beach when the summertime comes? Are you guys having to do any sort of beach replenishment or even maybe repairs on some of the buildings that you guys have on your properties?

Terry Gray 

It’s interesting, there’s been a lot of conversations about that lately. We had big winter storms in both December in January, and there was a lot of storm damage along the coasts. That’s a natural process, and it’s been going on for forever. What’s different now is in that when you look at that ebb and flow of sand coming off the beach and off the coastline, the sands going deeper, and the natural processes that bring the sand back onto the beach, aren’t really keeping up. The end result is our coastline is changing. And I think people can see that, and especially people that have been around for a while and know what it used to look like. And that makes a lot of people nervous. In DEM, in our facilities, our approach is to really try and rely on nature and not react to the individual storms, but let nature do our work and see where we’re at, at the end of April before the summer and see what she’s brought back.

Colleen Cronin 

Are there any beaches in particular? I know it’s not a state beach, but I was at First Beach [in Newport] after probably the last really big storm and, you know, they’re talking about how they’re going to have to demolish a lot of buildings on their property. Are there any beaches, state beaches in particular, where erosion or those big storms are a problem?

Terry Gray 

Well, I think I think you have two issues there. One is sand, and beachfront. And the second one is the structures, the pavilions, the boardwalks, that type of infrastructure that goes with a beach. I think, in terms of infrastructure, our state beaches are in pretty good shape, we’ve kept up with that. I don’t see any imminent danger. Some of them have been impacted by sea level rise at some of the parks, but not so much at the beaches. In terms of the sand, that’s something that we’re watching closely. We don’t have a beach replenishment program in Rhode Island. Like I said, we’ve really relied on nature to do that work, but it’s getting to the point in some problem areas that that people may want to look at that. And when you look at it’s not just the state beaches. You have a hierarchy, kind of. State beaches, city and town beaches, municipal beaches, like First Beach, Narragansett Town Beach is another one. And then there’s several more, but then when you roll out, you have some private beaches. And then of course, you have homeowners that have beachfront property. So, all of those parties are looking at it from a different angle and are kind of nervous about the changes that we’re seeing.

Colleen Cronin 

I know that Massachusetts sort of has a program or that they’re doing a lot of beach replenishment. My mom’s from Scituate, Mass., which is right on the coast. And they’re actually putting in a lot of sand right now on a beach that’s sort of half public, half private. What do you think the feasibility of a program like that would be and are you seeing any interest? I know, we were both at an environmental House committee meeting a couple of weeks ago, and a lot of representatives had spoken about their interest in it.

Terry Gray 

So, there’s a few things to think about there. One is that it’s expensive. And second of all, is it’s got to be very carefully designed, there’s been a story that’s been reported about a person that invested almost half a million dollars in beach replenishment in Massachusetts, and it was gone within three days.

Colleen Cronin 

Wow.

Terry Gray 

And that’s just money thrown into the ocean, literally. So, we have to plan that very carefully. I think one of the important plans on that is to use natural sort of dunes and buffers to really support nature and bring that back into equilibrium. So, we need to come up with a plan on that. And our resiliency team is starting to look at that. But we’re not at the point where we have anything ready to really talk about.

Colleen Cronin 

Kind of pulling back out and looking at the more general picture of getting ready for the season. Is there something that you wish could be a part of DEM’s beach and park prep? That isn’t either because of budget or staffing constraints at the moment?

Terry Gray 

Well, staffing constraints are always something that we need to look at. And one of the things that we’re really happy about this year is that Gov. McKee went forward with a proposal that that we developed to transition a bunch of our seasonal positions into full-time employees and our goal is to take roughly about 100 seasonal positions, which sometimes aren’t even used, and use the funding to support regular DEM employees. And that would create about 12 employees. That type of investment in our parks program would make a huge difference. And so far, obviously, the governor has been very supportive of it. It’s in his budget. And we’ve gotten a very positive reception when we’ve talked to legislative leadership about that so far.

Colleen Cronin 

You might have to stay neutral about this next question. You were talking about the unique, wonderful things about all of our state parks and beaches, and we talked about state parks last time and one of your favorite spots, but do you have a favorite state beach?

Terry Gray 

That’s like asking which one of your children is your favorite. I think like I said earlier, each one of the parks has or the beaches rather has its own personality and its own clientele. And it kind of depends what kind of mood you’re in. Right? And they might be your favorite depending on what you want to do. You know, if you’re into the surf, then there are certain beaches that are really good. If you want to just hang out on the on the sand and have a chill day, then there’s other beaches that are really good for that. If you bring in a family, then is another avenue for that. I don’t really have a favorite. But if um, it depends on the moment, put it that way, and I can pick out a beach that I want to go.,

Colleen Cronin 

Okay, okay, we’ll take that answer. We’ll take that answer. Thanks for kind of taking us through all this summer prep stuff, I’ve definitely learned a lot. Moving on to some more recent things that have been in the news: A finback whale was euthanized in Potter Pond recently, and a necropsy revealed that the whale was likely not entangled or struck by anything before it stranded itself, and instead suffered a brain infection and had parasites. It’s been widely reported on. But that hasn’t stopped there from being rumors online about how it could have something to do with offshore wind. Why do you think people jumped to conclusions on this when it was seems pretty straightforward?

Terry Gray 

Well, let’s start by observing that people get nervous with uncertainty. And the offshore wind industry as a newly developing industry that that’s out there, in a resource that people have been used to and using and enjoying for, you know, centuries. So, the impacts, or the lack of impacts are not really, completely understood yet. One thing I can say is our marine fisheries staff is first rate, and they’re on top of this, they have been coordinating with federal officials, they’ve been coordinating with our neighbors to really look at this very closely. There’s no scientific evidence that we’ve seen that that connects offshore wind with marine mammal mortality. That being said, every one of the offshore wind permits and approvals that are going through include scientific study, and analysis, as they’re implemented, as they’re constructed. And as they operate, the data from that is going to be invaluable to really understand what the impacts are, or to explain to people that there are no impacts. So that’s how we’re approaching that.

Colleen Cronin 

And is it just this, you know, offshore wind hot topic that you’re seeing sort of a lot of polarization and maybe perhaps misinformation? Or are there other ways that that sort of attitude is seeping into other things you guys do?

Terry Gray 

Well, the offshore wind piece is a local lightning rod for the climate discussion. And when you start talking about climate, you polarize people, in a lot of ways, not as much as before. And I think things are kind of evening out a little bit. But it definitely pushes people to take sides.

Colleen Cronin 

I know you’ve been at DEM for a while, even before you were in this role as director. How do you feel like it’s changed that conversation about climate change? And how do you think, you know, DEM or other groups have been successful, maybe as much as it’s polarized now, depolarizing it, and making it more of an easier topic to talk about?

Terry Gray 

Well, there’s a few things. That’s a great question, Colleen. And there’s a few things that have changed. And it definitely has changed. If you go back five or six years ago, there was a really healthy portion of the population that just denied climate change. They didn’t think it was happening. They certainly didn’t think it was caused by man’s activities. I think that’s changed quite a bit. And for a couple of reasons. One, I think the climate, the impacts of climate change are pretty, pretty obvious to people now, in terms of more frequent more intense storms, things like wildfires and tornadoes in Rhode Island. And then if you just look at the data for sea level rise and storm surge, you’re talking about those winter storms. I mean, it it’s something’s happening. Yeah, so even people that have no science interest, or real background will understand that some things happen. The other thing they’ll see is the economy is changing. So, we’re talking about things like EVs. We’re talking about EV school buses, EV public transportation, heat pumps, solar panels, ground-based solar development. It’s kind of in your face now that something is changing. And I think that that’s settled in with the population, and people understand that there’s something going on. And it’s also piqued a lot of interest with people that do have that curiosity, to say, “Alright, I want to dig into this a little bit more.”

Colleen Cronin 

Moving on to some General Assembly stuff. There’s currently a bill in the General Assembly that would make some changes to Rhode Island’s Access to Public Records Act, also known as APRA. Full disclosure, I was recently on a panel sort of talking about the act and talking about access to public records. And I’ve written about trying to get access to see crash data, location data, which is something that this bill that would modify so APRA would make it public. I saw that you had sent in a letter to recommend some amendments to this bill. And we’re coming at it from, I think, pretty different perspectives. And I would love to hear more about why you sent that letter in? And from an agency’s perspective why this bill, might, as it’s currently written, be too onerous?

Terry Gray 

Well, let me start by saying that that DEM is very, very committed to transparency and access to public records. And we actually have probably one of the most active if not the most active public records systems. And the reason for that is property transfers. Yep. So, a lot of people, when they finance a new house, they finance a business, they need to do their due diligence and look at the environmental conditions of properties. So, they come in look for this septic system plans, look for wetlands maps, that type of thing. We probably serve close to 1,500-2,000 of these requests a year. Ideally, I would like to deliver all that online, and then that makes our business processes easier. And it makes the access easier for people.

Colleen Cronin 

Like a sort of database type deal that’s access that’s publicly available online, maybe they don’t, someone doesn’t even have to interface with a public records officer?

Terry Gray 

Ideally, yes. And a lot of that is, um, is actually present right now. It just, it’s just not as comprehensive as people want to look at. So now the question is, alright, if we can’t deliver it online, people have to deliver it in person. And our concerns are more about the process than the theory behind it. And it’s just a lot of work to take an old file, sort of go through it, make sure that it’s clean, you know, there’s not any kind of extra records or anything in there. We have a lot of people that put newspaper copies of newspaper articles and stuff like that in a file, which really aren’t public records. And if we want to properly deliver that file, we need to make sure it’s compliant. So that takes a little work. And then the there’s other procedural pieces that we just want to make sure that that we’re not creating barriers to access by layering more process on it, I think that’s the best way to describe it.

Colleen Cronin 

So, I guess the way I kind of see it is, from my perspective, it the bill makes information easier to get for me as a journalist, because I’m always going to be more pro information. So, I can’t say that I’m not biased in this sort of conversation. But I’m kind of hearing from your perspective that to a degree like some of the mandates that it has, it’s almost an unfunded mandate, in some sense that it’s requiring certain things to be free, like the law would make it impossible for agencies to charge for redactions that I think that was one of the things that you said you’d like to see amended in the bill. And in a way, that’s sort of an unfunded mandate. And you guys have already said that, if you had more stuff in it in general, that’d be a great thing.

Terry Gray 

I think that’s one of the big things is just looking at the workload that’s imposed by new legislation. And it’s not just the Public Records Act. And so, it’s a lot of stuff, there’s 2,000 bills in play. And the ones that pertain to DEM, we have to look at our ability to implement it. And that I think that’s fair, because once the bill passes, there’s expectations that we’re going to do it right, and we’re going to want to do it. So, we need to understand what that means in terms of staffing. The other thing I’ll throw out there is, and I don’t know how to fix this, but there might be a way to look at this in terms of not one size fits all. There are certain public records requests that are very routine, very easy. And we don’t need to layer more process on those. And then there’s others that are a little bit more dicey, a little bit more controversial that that may warrant that. I don’t know.

Colleen Cronin 

I really appreciate your perspective on it. Moving on to something else. The Nature Conservancy recently surveyed likely voters and found that more than 80% think that housing creation and open space protection can be accomplished together. That’s something that I’ve written about a little bit. This is something that we sort of talked about on my last episode. But I’m just curious if you could talk about what role if any DEM could play in accomplishing both of those goals in tandem.

Terry Gray 

So, I’m definitely part of that 80%. And I absolutely think that we can meet the state’s housing needs, and still conserve farmland and open space at the same time. And I think there’s a little education that needs to happen on that, a little creative planning that needs to happen on that, and some coordination, and we’re working on all those things. One of the things that we really like to promote is low-impact development and conservation development. And that really kind of brings these two concepts together where you can have, you can have some housing, you can have a really good quality of life, because this conservew land, in the area around the, the homes.

Colleen Cronin 

And just to tell listeners, what conservation development is, if they don’t know and, Terry, you can correct me if my definition is bad, but it’s sort of like optimizing the open space that you have within the development so that, you know, maybe you’re reducing frontage, so that the houses are more densely packed on a certain space so that then there can be parcels in the back that then end up being more open space, and then can be put into conservation easements and things like that.

Terry Gray 

That’s right. It’s really on a on a parcel-by-parcel basis, striking that balance that you started this conversation with, which is, is between land conservation and housing development. So, you’re taking it and you’re looking at it and say, “Alright, what’s the best approach or what’s the best balance?” And unfortunately, over time, we’ve involved a lot of requirements at the state and local level on things like setbacks and, and that, that can interfere with this. And it really pushes houses to a very specific spot on a lot that doesn’t, it may not be optimal for the purposes that that we’re talking about here.

Colleen Cronin 

Thank you so much for coming on the pod today. We really appreciate it. And thank you to our listeners for following along. If you have any questions you’d like to ask Terry next time or topics you’d like us to discuss on the podcast, please email me at [email protected]. We want to thank Vanessa Carlton for letting us use her song “Willows” for our theme song, which you’re at the beginning and end of every episode. Thanks also to Jo, our editor for editing and mixing the episode and fixing all of my editing mistakes. For more Rhody environmental news you can visit us at ecori.org.